Curse

Navaros · Dec 12, 2005, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmash Witdaclub

so then, back to my main topic, what about the people that you have played with, for quite some time, and are less than rank 6 but do not suck? is it ok to boot them just for not having the time to be uber ranked? You said MOST players, not all players lower than rank 6, so therefore you believe that rank does not necessarily identify skill.

Yeah, you're right on this point. Your Guildies were being real jerks to kick a good player who they know just because he's not rank 6. Shame on them.

Beqxter · Dec 13, 2005, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

For example, if 75% of rank 6+ folk suck, and 77% of rank 3+ folk suck, and 79% of rank 1+ folk suck...

And thus was born Epinephrine's Algorithm of Suck.

To the OP: While I can understand your old guild's logic and desire to succeed (though like many I think rank is a poor indicator of skill), I find their treatment of you indefensible. If what you say is what happened (we've only heard one side of the story), then they were callous, selfish and simply rude. You're better off without them - find another guild that wants YOU and not your rank, and you'll be far happier.

Red Locust · Dec 13, 2005, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmash Witdaclub

So, my question why is it so important that every guild member be a certain rank?

It's not. Rank is only a rough estimate of the amount of tombs experience a random person has. Knowing that person and his abilities will tell you a lot more about him than his rank ever could.

The only time I'd even consider rank is when looking for random pickups to fill out a tombs group. To kick existing members out of a guild because of their insufficient rank is complete stupidity. You're better off without them, mate.

mamluk · Dec 13, 2005, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

The simple reality is that most players who are not rank 6 do indeed suck.

Hence it is only logical to presume that someone who is not rank 6 or more is likely to suck.

Yes, there are rank 6 players who suck. But that's besides the point. The likelihood of a rank 6 or higher player sucking is far less than that of a rank 3 player sucking.

Therefore it is perfectly logical to not want anything less than rank 6.

Let me use your logic.....

The simple reality is that most players who are not rank 12 suck.
Hence it is only logical to assume that rank 12 players dont suck. (man your logic is atrocious here)

The likelihood of a rank 12 or higher player sucking is far less than that of a rank 9 player sucking.

Therefore it is perfectly logical to not want anything to do with less than rank 12 players.

Thus, I refuse to talk to any of you plebian scum who are not rank 12.

Navaros, the lack of logic in the above argument is really not bad. For instance, if people below a certain threshold mostly suck, then its not neccessarily true that those above it don't. E.g. Adults below 4 feet are short. Therefore those above 4 feet are tall. See my point?

And I would put the disclaimer that any attribution of skill is based on tombs not gvg or arena, etc.
I certainly believe that tomb's knowledge of the types of maps (e.g. relic runs) is useful when running a serious tomb group, but I believe that most people suck period regardless of rank. Basically, if a group is auditioning people based on rank, then I wouldn't waste my time.

Hells Vengeance · Dec 13, 2005, 02:54 AM // 02:54

I hardly ever tomb, because I know if I go PUG I will never win. Guild shouln't be mostly just focused on ToPK. Guilds are for getting to know one another better and to have fun.

Tactical-Dillusions · Dec 13, 2005, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmash Witdaclub

I am thinking about hanging up my hammer now til chap 2 comes out.

Hang it up next to my bow, buddy.

Shmash Witdaclub · Dec 13, 2005, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hells Vengeance

Guilds are for getting to know one another better and to have fun.

I think this is one of the biggest aspects of this whole inscidence that I am upset about.

Shmash

Arturo02 · Dec 13, 2005, 05:28 AM // 05:28

How important can rank be as a determining factor in a person's ability in pvp when it is so easily farmed?

Lampshade · Dec 13, 2005, 05:47 AM // 05:47

I barley Tomb, I'm only rank2.

However, I have done a few hundered GvG's. When I do go into Tombs, I know what I'm doing. It sucks your Guild kicked you for Elitism. Fame and Faction doesnt really mean anything anymore, you could IWAY for a week or play a boon prot and you could get "Elite".

Divine Elemental · Dec 13, 2005, 06:27 AM // 06:27

It's like

Higher Rank - Longer , WIder Experience in Tombs while other people are in high guilds

such as the old school ones sB / MS / etc cause they are pro GvG
they have Strategical and are good tactics i quite know a few who are rank 1 - 5 who are in the top 10 guilds

Scrubs Can Die · Dec 13, 2005, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Rank only means a lot to scrubs with no life and/or connections to good players. Since we have these scrubs with no life and/or connections who think rank is the best determination of skill, you see people with no real experience in ToPK jumping on the rank bandwagon because all they see is "LF r3+ only! no n00bs!". They equate having rank to your player skill and never learn any better.

c h a v e z · Dec 13, 2005, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmash Witdaclub

and they said that they had decided that they were going to go to a strictly rank 6 or 7+ guild

I hate to be the bringer of bad news but if a guild judges skill like that they were not a top guild to begin with.

many of the top guilds dont even tomb at all, the highest form of competition is in gvg.

1v1v1 gank fest in hoh and capture the flag are not competition, its a joke. Which is exactly why the guildwars world tournament will be held in GvG format (thank god, and hope fully observer mode will be out by then so i can watch it)

Saria Nightblade · Dec 13, 2005, 07:26 AM // 07:26

I have a lot of different contacts across lots of different guilds. One day I was called in by a friend to monk for a group. We were waiting in the vault before HoH and people were talking about ranks they were about to get, (6+'s) and I whispered him and was like, "heh should I tell them I'm like 30 fame away from rank 3?" My friend was like, "you're rank 3! Wow you're so good I thought you were rank 6 or higher." Then a testament to good players he says, "you could tell them, they'd laugh, but none of them would care. You're keeping them alive."

Makkert · Dec 13, 2005, 07:30 AM // 07:30

By far the dumbest reason to kick someone out of guild yet. Wow, that is really loud. Agree with Chavez, what kind of 'topguild' kicks players for that?

Clusmas · Dec 13, 2005, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Rank shows, whether it is farmed or not, your experience in tombs.

It doesn't make you any better or worse, it shows you are familiar with how each of the tombs maps works along with various strategies for each. Even if you IWAY you should watch how your enemies do things and learn from them. Unfortunately most people who do IWAY are stupid and can't pay attention to any thing more than what's on the end of their axe.

So, if you're rank 6 it shows you'd have quite a good understanding of tombs. You could be the best or worse player in the game but you know how tombs works.

Shmash, I think your guild did you a favor. If they're stupid enough to kick a friend then you're probably better off without them. I wish you good luck while searching for a better group of people!

One and Two · Dec 13, 2005, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clusmas

Shmash, I think your guild did you a favor. If they're stupid enough to kick a friend then you're probably better off without them.

So how did he do a favor?

Truthfully, what kind of "top" guild kicks someone out for rank? I mean I thought I heard the worst when someone failed to use their res si....nevermind.

Just out of curiosity, what do you consider a top guild, and if you may, what was the guild (or even a rough number)?

Oh yeah. Chavez. I <3 you and all. But EP recently did tombs

. Ok fine...so it was a once in a lifetime thing for them.

burai · Dec 13, 2005, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadlyjunk

Though I agree wholeheartedly, if in game elitism bothers you, why are you wearing 15K platemail? *avatar*

Damn, someone spotted it

No, really it's for my own personal gratification - honest

Gwenhywar · Dec 13, 2005, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmash Witdaclub

I was in a top reputable guild for some time now and I was just booted the other day while I was inactive due to recovering from surgery.

Anyway, when I came back I asked why I was booted and they said that they had decided that they were going to go to a strictly rank 6 or 7+ guild. Okay, I guess I can understand that, I am only rank 3.

I find it rather hard to believe that people would kick someone from the guild because of their rank - there must have been other reasons, because guildies could care less about what rank someone is, they care how GOOD you are as a player, how do you fit in the guild as a personality, how active you are, etc.

I'm guessing since you were away from GW they probably decided you was not active enough (did you tell them why you was away?). Or maybe you were not in fact as good buddies as you thought you were ...

I really don't think your case falls into the general ranting about the (un)importance of rank, you should just talk it out with your old guildies - if you want to get back in. If not, just move on - if you are a good player, there are plenty of decent guilds out there ...

Empedocles · Dec 13, 2005, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Rank is garbage.

True skill is developed by playing a variety of roles, being able to determine how a build fits in and when to use what, and of course through in game experience in PvP, developing situational awareness and so on.

The fact is that good players can be identified by their knowledge of the game and by their play, and that's it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clusmas

Rank shows, whether it is farmed or not, your experience in tombs.

It doesn't make you any better or worse, it shows you are familiar with how each of the tombs maps works along with various strategies for each. Even if you IWAY you should watch how your enemies do things and learn from them. Unfortunately most people who do IWAY are stupid and can't pay attention to any thing more than what's on the end of their axe.

So, if you're rank 6 it shows you'd have quite a good understanding of tombs. You could be the best or worse player in the game but you know how tombs works.

From the above quotes I am tempted to make up a following argument:

Epi: Good players can be identified by their knowledge of the game and their play
Clusmas: High ranked players have a good knowledge of tombs maps.

Conclusion: Good tombs players can be identified by their knowledge of tombs and hence high ranked players are good tombs players.

Something seems flawed

- what?

As Epi mentioned, the fact that skill develops by playing different roles rather than mind-numbingly doing one role only.

Ok, I admit, that it might be possible develope your situational awareness by farming fame in tombs with just FOTM teams like the previous E/Mo smiters or current Iway. However, the way you're gained your rank (or fame or faction) also affects as to what kind of pvp you are used to. For example, let's assume you're monked (heaven forbid!) your way up to r6. It may require some time to get used to the role of the target caller since both roles require you to focuse your attention quite differently. Not to mention the fact if you're doing tombs only, some of the gvg maps will really be alien ground to you.

Oh and to kick someone out because of rank, most ridiculous.

Emp.

Roza · Dec 13, 2005, 10:06 AM // 10:06

People who judge other players by rank are either elitist (they feel rank is important because THEY are rank+ something), silly or lazy.

It is easy to determine whether a player is good by another good player. Ask for skill-bar, ask about a skill, ask about something else. The reaction you get will let you determine the level of the player with much greater accuracy than any rank shown. Rank 3+ will only tell you that a player has played tombs frequently for a while (not whether they are any good, they may have IWAY-ed for months or got to rank 3 in one weekend, no way to tell). Rank6+ players will generally be competent as they will most likely have been in good groups fairly often, though they may also be just obsesive PuG or IWAY players with a lot of playing time behind them). And a rank 1 might be just as good as a rank 9.

Nowadays, so many people get to rank 3+ due to the IWAY thing. Imho, if a player got to rank 6 by IWAYing, they are probably less suitable for anything besides IWAY then a rank3+ not having done that (it shows that they are happy playing the same simple tactic over and over, rather than experimenting with the many options in this game, which is generally not a sign of great intelligence).

The importance that rank has in the eyes of many players is probably the the worst thing about tombs and about the game in general. It makes PvP hard to get into for many players. I would guess that for every 1 good rank6+ player, there are 3 potentially equally good players that give tombs a try but get put off by the fact that without rank, they can only find very newbie pugs or IWAY pugs. For these players, the only answer is finding a good guild, patient fame farming (not attractive) or getting lucky and finding a good group and becoming friends with them (which is not likely with most good groups having this l33t rank+6 only attitude).

So, in short: rank+ something requirements are the scourge of pvp.